Divorce and Family Mediator Daniele Ozeri joins Jen and Patrice to discuss strategies for mending the complex dynamics within families—be it the bond between parents and children or among adult siblings. Daniele explains the subtle nuances that differentiate family mediations from divorce mediations, emphasizing the importance of cultivating understanding and empathy. Her approach, centered around personalized mini-agreements and consistent check-ins, not only addresses immediate disputes but also fortifies relationships for the long haul.
Exploring the ecosystem of support for families in conflict, we examine the overlapping roles of mediators and other professionals such as therapists and attorneys. Mediators, like Daniele, often wear the hat of a neutral facilitator, masterfully navigating between legal boundaries and emotional needs. Our discussion broadens to include the vital yet underappreciated role of conflict coaching, a service that primes individuals for the mediation process. Here, Daniele illustrates how this coaching can pave the way for improved communication, offering a beacon of hope to those who might grapple with the stigma of seeking mental health support. Learn more about Daniele and her approach at: www.dngmediation.com.
Divorce and Family Mediator Daniele Ozeri joins Jen and Patrice to discuss strategies for mending the complex dynamics within families—be it the bond between parents and children or among adult siblings. Daniele explains the subtle nuances that differentiate family mediations from divorce mediations, emphasizing the importance of cultivating understanding and empathy. Her approach, centered around personalized mini-agreements and consistent check-ins, not only addresses immediate disputes but also fortifies relationships for the long haul.
Exploring the ecosystem of support for families in conflict, we examine the overlapping roles of mediators and other professionals such as therapists and attorneys. Mediators, like Daniele, often wear the hat of a neutral facilitator, masterfully navigating between legal boundaries and emotional needs. Our discussion broadens to include the vital yet underappreciated role of conflict coaching, a service that primes individuals for the mediation process. Here, Daniele illustrates how this coaching can pave the way for improved communication, offering a beacon of hope to those who might grapple with the stigma of seeking mental health support. Learn more about Daniele and her approach at: www.dngmediation.com.
Welcome to Mending Fences, a podcast about effective ways to communicate and live with differences. I'm Patrice Bremner.
Speaker 2:And I'm Jen Hawthorne. We're both family law mediators and collaborative law attorneys, but our conversations go well beyond family law. We explore the personal, interpersonal, legal and cultural impact of conflict. Hi, and welcome back to Mending Fences. I'm Jen Hawthorne-Kelsey and, as always, I'm joined today by Patrice Bremner. Hi, patrice, hi, jen Hi, and we also have a special guest, danielle Ozeri. Patrice is going to tell us a little bit about Danielle before we get started.
Speaker 1:Yeah, jen and I are really excited to talk with Danielle today. Danielle is a divorce and family mediator based in Cambridge Massachusetts, but she does provide mediation services virtually and can do some travel to meet with her clients, which I find really interesting and at some point we'll want to hear more about. But today Jen and I are really interested in talking with Danielle about her family mediation. We've talked a lot on this podcast about divorce mediation and some about community mediation and dispute resolution just a little bit. But we're really interested in hearing about Danielle's family mediation experiences and just learning more about what that looks like and how people can use this process as families. Hi, danielle, hi.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me on your podcast.
Speaker 1:We are really excited to have you here. So with that as background, I'm not sure where you want to start, but we can jump in about family mediation in any way that works for you.
Speaker 3:Okay, great, thank you so much. And before we jump in, I did want to reflect on something that I was thinking about as I was preparing for this podcast, which is that I've never done a podcast before, I've never been on a podcast, so thanks for having me, as this I will always remember. This time, I think something that is going on for me is I was a little bit nervous in preparation because I've never done it before and it's been a while since I've done something for the first time. So it really got me thinking about how, when our clients come to us, they're coming to do something they've never done before, and how nervous they must feel.
Speaker 3:And I have a lot of appreciation for what it takes for people to show up. And so, yeah, I just wanted to kind of put it out there, that nervous feeling that I have. I can see how others might feel it as well, and so it takes a lot of courage for parties to show up to something they don't know what it's going to look like. They don't know what it might feel like, and I have a lot of compassion and empathy for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2:I think that's something we probably all see and it's good to be mindful of it, and so I really appreciate you bringing this up this morning and calling our attention to it, because it is true, right, so many clients will say something like, well, I've never done this before. You tell me what to expect. And at the end of a first meeting, sometimes you can see relief once they've at least experienced one mediation and they understand what it's going to be like. And I think that's probably exactly what they're all feeling, in addition to the fact that usually, when folks are coming to any of us from any type of mediation, it's because there's some crisis going on in their lives, and so they already have that heightened emotional state, and then they're also trying something new to try to resolve it, which is it is nerve-wracking and it is scary.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I'm gonna put that aside and focus on our conversation. Yeah, so I think, like you mentioned, I'm a divorce and family mediator and I have my own practice danger mediation and so part of it is for divorcing and separating couples and for co-parenting matters, which I think we all talk about and know a lot about the benefits of mediation, what the process looks like, their goals are very clear for that sort of mediation. And you know I've decided to also have family mediation as part of my practice because I have seen how having Mediation for interpersonal conflicts between family members could be incredibly beneficial. I've seen that. I think it stems from my work in the juvenile courts in Cambridge, where I see how a parent and a parent and a child Having a facilitated conversation with a, with a mediator, could be just incredibly beneficial For their relationship and for them understanding each other better, and so that's really why I decided to have that family piece as part of my practice.
Speaker 3:The sorts of clients who show up to my for a family mediation they Most of the time it is either parents who are having difficulties with a child, so it could be an adult child who, like an adult daughter, for example, who's no longer speaking to her mother and the parent reaches out to sort of see what can be done in that regard. And it also could look like siblings reaching out. So I've worked with adult siblings who have an ongoing conflict and they just can't figure out what's going on, it can't move forward, so they reach out. They maybe they've tried other things, they've tried therapy, they've tried different things and hasn't created any movement for them. So they reach out for mediation and I've just really enjoyed working with these clients. Sometimes you know the process. The process looks different for each case, but sometimes it's helpful for parties to have kind of many agreements as they move through the process and sometimes they'll just be sort of verbal agreements and Check-ins, and so in that regard it does look a little differently, different than other mediation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you, if I can kind of jump in.
Speaker 1:So I I mean, as you said, and I want to, just for listeners, slow this part down a bit, because I think it's such a good point that in a divorce mediation there is one big overarching goal and that is to work through Conversations around everything that you'd need to discuss and formalize in order to get divorced.
Speaker 1:So the divorce is sort of the end product of that. And with family mediation what I'm hearing is that there might not be discrete things, a discrete dispute like I saw, I'm imagining and you tell me, like with adult siblings, maybe it's something around their parents, the care of their parents if they're elderly, or the parents estate or something or some property. So maybe there is a discrete thing that they're trying to resolve, like in terms of a dispute, but maybe not Like the example you gave of a parent with an adult child and they're just trying to reestablish contact. So those feel like really different kinds of goals I guess I'm curious about, like, do people spend time at the beginning of the process sort of defining the goal? Is it helpful to do that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, great question. So yeah, and to speak for a moment about the distinguishing between having a specific goal and perhaps not. Oftentimes people come to me with a specific goal, but because people are related, going to see each other again, they're in relationship with each other for many, many years, god willing, healthy, healthy, successful lives. The interpersonal piece, the relational piece, is just as important as that specific goal. So basically, I just utilize tools that, as mediators, we practice all the time identifying the underlying interests. Why is this person really coming to me, what's really underlying what they're saying, what's important for them and how can I help them achieve that? So of course someone says to you this is what I want, but we discover pretty quickly that there's other things underlying that, that you cannot resolve or achieve that one goal without answering to those underlying things as well. So in the family mediation especially, I do see that the relational piece is very important and you can't talk about the money or the estate or whatever it is boundaries in the relationship without working on the interpersonal piece as well.
Speaker 3:And when I think about success in a mediation, of course it looks different for every case, but one thing that I've noticed that happened to a recent client of mine is. I invited the parties to show up to a meeting with me and they took a couple of days to get back to me and they said you know, actually we decided to meet on our own, and to me that feels like okay, I've gotten them to a place where they feel comfortable enough and able enough to have this conversation on their own. To me that's a sign of success, absolutely yeah, and I think maybe we've all said this at some point in our lives. We'd be most successful if we were out of jobs, like in a sense, that people could just resolve their own conflicts and take ownership over things on their own. But when a party says to me, like I think we're going to try to do this on my own, I'm like, yes, like snaps to that. So, yeah, that's something that I've noticed, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure even how to word this question, so it's okay if you're not sure exactly how to answer it, but what I imagine the listeners are thinking is how is family mediation different from family counseling?
Speaker 3:Very good question. Yeah, this is a question that I'm in conversation with therapists about, so I don't have a good answer for you, but I am thinking about this because I am not a therapist, I'm not a counselor, and I think one of the sort of easier responses to that in my mind is well, I help them come up with agreements as they go along, so they'll try out something until the next session, not saying that therapists don't do that or counselors don't do that, but I utilize what I know as a facilitator of a process to help people arrive at some kind of intermediate agreement that they could try until the next session and see how that worked out. So that is something that I think could be different, but I think that that is a topic that is very ripe for more exploration and my partner, who is studying to be a clinical psychologist we talk about it all the time, about the differences, so that's definitely the ripe conversation to have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that conversation. This is such an interesting because I think therapists can be really effective facilitators. I think attorneys can be really effective facilitators if they're trained that way and want to do that and apply themselves that way. If you're not an attorney or a therapist, you're a mediator, so you're sitting in that place where you're just a facilitator, and that was the word that I was in my mind as you were talking and then you finally said it your job is the facilitation, without the other considerations, necessarily and maybe I'm being unfair to therapists and lawyers, but there's something I think, as an attorney who worked as a litigator before I became a mediator, I'm always looking for how do I become a better facilitator, and I don't know, jen, where you sit on that. This is a conversation we have had before on the podcast about I want to know where facilitator school is, because I want to go to facilitator school.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think for me, just the way and I've talked about this, my history on this podcast before but the way I came into practicing this work, I think for me the larger paradigm shift actually happens when I am in a real advocacy role for someone, like outside of any out of court process. If I find myself in court, I feel like that's where my paradigm shift has to come in, because my natural inclination is to be more of a facilitator and to really be focused on the problem solving and the conflict resolution. But this is what I was going to say a couple of minutes ago. There's an ongoing conversation at. I'm on the board and the membership chair of the APFM, which is the Academy of Professional Family Mediators, and historically that organization has also been very focused on building out professional development and things like that for divorce mediators. That's where the focus has been.
Speaker 2:And then we brought in prenuptial mediation and sort of the beginning of a marriage and most recently we've started a special interest group that is having these exact conversations but instead of around families at large, they're calling the special interest group couples mediation right now, and the conversation that I've had with someone there really mirrors this conversation in terms of how does it differ from therapy and I think that is an ongoing conversation. But the place that you landed, danielle, in your answer is almost exactly the same place that larger group is landing that. Therapy explores the big picture and finds the root of the issues, and mediation is a place to get those practical solutions and to really work through. Okay, now we know this is a problem, we've identified it, we know we want better communication, we know we need managing a household like better processes, and then you can come to mediation and work through. Okay, here are those practical steps that can maybe actually create a better working relationship with each other to continue the larger relationship and do you find I'm sorry, patrice, and I'm just curious.
Speaker 1:I do find, danielle that people I just I'm wondering like are there folks out there who are more comfortable? I can imagine that some folks would be more comfortable coming to a mediator than a therapist Cause it's like there's a different. There's, and I'm sorry to say, but I think there are stigmas that people might attach to the idea of needing mental health care, whether that's really what it is or not. But with a mediator you wouldn't have that yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, I think that's absolutely true for some people. I also think a lot of the people that I meet with, whether they are in the family or a divorce mediation, they also have therapists sometimes. So I think that, just like we think of or just I'll speak for myself just as I think of my divorcing couples as having a team of people who are helping them the financial advisors, an attorney on hand, a mediator, et cetera, or a parenting coach or whatever they need I think that people who come for a family mediation, they have this similar sort of support system which could include teachers, other siblings, a therapist. So I think that I see, I definitely see people from both camps. I think that mediation, having a mediator on your side, is a complimentary thing to a therapist. It's not like you should have one or the other, but, yeah, I definitely think that. I mean, I think therapy is incredibly valuable and mediation by no means takes that place. But the conversation between the two, I think is really interesting and we should continue to think and talk about it. I'm happy to hear the other people thinking about it as well. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And one thing I wanted to share about the process of family mediation, which to me is a little different than the way I think about my separated couples is I, when I first meet with the family mediation client site, we'll have a pretty extensive intake with them, like a pre-meeting conversation separately, and in that conversation sometimes I'm already starting to sort of do a little bit of conflict coaching almost.
Speaker 3:So I will already start to bring up some things for them that I'm noticing that they are saying in a certain way that I might encourage them to start already thinking how might the other person respond if you use this word or this tone, and start kind of exploring that with them in the beginning. I do know some mediators do that with their separated couples as well, having those pre-conversations and really preparing them for the joint session. But especially with the family mediation clients where I know they're going to have an ongoing relationship or really the relationship is one of the biggest pieces there that I really try to already start to coach them in the beginning and help them really prepare for that joint session.
Speaker 2:I don't do that as a matter of practice, but hearing you explain it that way as conflict coaching honestly just made me pause and think would that be helpful? I often speak to both people in the separating couple separately because of the way we've structured our consultations. I explained that at any point in the process if they need to talk to me separately or if I think it would be helpful to talk to them separately. One of the examples that I give is if they're speaking to each other in such a manner that it makes it hard to keep the conversation going because it feels familiar and off-putting and all of that. But the idea of actually just confronting that reality that that likely is going to happen at some point in the process in a different way, by saying, okay, and how would you handle it, I think that's a really smart idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love the idea of building in conflict coaching in that way so that people are feeling supported. From the very first meeting, as you were describing it, I was thinking if I was a participant I would start to feel there are a lot of possibilities.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. Also in thinking of if I was a party to this, I would like to have that pre-conversation. That's not something I always offered, but I think as I've been growing in my experience, I've noticed that that really makes a difference, having that pre-conversation and, like I said, thinking of it as a little bit of coaching has also been helpful to me, because I'm like, okay, it opens things up for me to be able to say I can actually do a little bit of coaching and allow myself to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I like that. I think we're just about out of time, I'm afraid, and we all want to have you come back. I know that we have probably a lot more questions about family mediation, but I'm wondering, danielle, if there's anything else you'd want to add for our listeners to know in a general way about family mediation as we wrap up this talk.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think something that's important to me in the family mediation is that it gives everyone an opportunity to have a voice, and especially in like a parent-child relationship. I feel like oftentimes I get like a parent who's very upset, and when they are able to not only express themselves fully but hear their child express themselves fully, not being interrupted, I think that is an incredibly powerful dynamic, and I'm not a parent, so I'm not aware of the complexities of parenting, but I do see how that raising up everyone's voices and giving everyone an opportunity to express themselves is really powerful in the parent-child relationship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's it. That's it in a nutshell. Is everybody being heard and everybody having a chance to really listen? Yeah, so, as we say here at Mending Penses, we'll keep talking, we'll keep talking. Thank you so much, danielle. How can people find you? Do you have a web address that you can share?
Speaker 3:I do dngmediationcom, and you can feel free to email me, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:I interrupted.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I'd email is info at dngmediationcom, and I would love to connect, even if it's just to chat, and I'm also always looking for co-mediators. So I think it's one of the best ways for me to keep learning and growing as a mediator. So if anyone's interested in co-mediating, I would love that. And yeah, that's a great way to reach me through info at dngmediationcom. Great Well, thanks so much for coming, thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:You bet Bye.