Mending Fences
Mending Fences
Embracing Change: Conflict as Transformation
Conflict is more than just a hurdle—it's an opportunity for transformation. Patrice and Jen explore how to harness the inherent the chaos of change toward personal and relational growth. Discover the power of reframing your focus and understanding what truly makes you feel secure amid instability. From discussing the emotional rollercoaster of conflict to offering strategies for open communication and self-care, Jen and Patrice highlight the value of personal growth and self-discovery. Avoid the pitfalls of seeking validation from those who've wronged you—find peace within yourself and regain your power. By trusting in a process and taking responsibility for your role, you'll discover a stronger negotiating position and a path toward a better resolution. Listen in to find out how embracing change can lead to a renewed sense of empowerment.
Welcome to Mending Fences, a podcast about effective ways to communicate and live with differences. I'm Patrice Bremner.
Speaker 2:And I'm Jen Hawthorne. We're both family law mediators and collaborative law attorneys, but our conversations go well beyond family law. We explore the personal, interpersonal, legal and cultural impacts of conflict.
Speaker 1:We explore the personal, interpersonal, legal and cultural impact of conflict. Welcome back to Mending Fences. I'm Patrice Bremner and I'm here today with Jen Hawthorne Kelsey. Hi Jen, hi Patrice. We're talking today about conflict as transformation, so this is something that we've been talking about between us for a while and we're really interested in exploring this on the podcast. I don't think we've ever had this conversation on Mending Fences.
Speaker 2:Not that I remember anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's really. I mean, I think that after years of practice and watching people walk through conflict and resolution, I think we've both seen enough examples of folks who are really transformed by the process and maybe didn't start out with that intent, but ended up in some really amazing and beneficial places as a result. That's what's made me want to talk about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think we got onto this topic a few weeks ago, just talking about how lots of folks in our world right now are feeling like they're in a state of crisis or conflict for a lot of different reasons, and so it felt like an appropriate time to talk about what one can do, to feel like they have some control over something in both spheres the larger world and, like what we do in divorce, feel like they have some control over what happens to them as they go through a conflict or a crisis.
Speaker 1:Right, right, right, right. And so, to begin to frame the conversation, I think I would start by just saying like any kind of conflict and I'm using that term really broadly, but any kind of conflict, it is a transformation. So something's going to change as a result of the conflict. Something will be different. You're going to change, or your circumstances are going to change, or your opportunity. Something's going to change.
Speaker 2:Your outlook is going to change. There's something. There's something that won't be the same, because this conflict, this thing, came into your life and it can be so.
Speaker 1:The challenge is, I think, that conflict and so we can use legal disputes as examples, but we'll try to extrapolate as we can throughout the conversation. In any kind of legal dispute, the process can be overwhelming and the details of the process can become. Anybody involved can become kind of fixated on the process and lose the bigger picture, but there's always an opportunity to step back and take stock of, like you know, where you are as an individual within that bigger picture. It can be overwhelming, it can be challenging, it can be hard to go through any kind of dispute resolution or conflict resolution process. But there is a choice there, right?
Speaker 2:Right, I think it's unsettling for us as human beings. Anytime we're not sure what the next step looks like. And I know I get people in my office all the time and I'm sure you do too, patrice where in like an initial consultation or our first conversations, someone will say well, I've never done this before, this is all new to us. This is like this is our first divorce, and sometimes that's said with tears, sometimes it's said with like anxiety, sometimes that's said with tears, sometimes it's said with anxiety, sometimes it's meant by the person saying it as a little bit of a joke to lighten, like that. And it does feel unsettling and it does bring up all of those emotions and they can range all the way.
Speaker 2:I mean, you might be going through the stages of grief, you might be stuck in anger, you might be stuck in sadness, but it made me think I'm talking about inside out for a brief minute there. But that's all the more reason to really take a step back if you have the ability to and think about okay, this is going to be a life-changing situation, right, how do I want it to transform me? How do I want it to transform this relationship that brought me into this conflict and relationship can be defined a thousand different ways. Right. It can be a close-knit relationship, a husband and wife, parents and child you know, siblings. Or it can be community, a conflict within your community that's still a relationship. Or larger scale like how do you fit into the larger world picture of what's happening?
Speaker 1:Right. And so you have choices, and I think that's kind of where we've wanted to go is to look at like you're not, even though it may feel sometimes like the process has a life of its own. If it's a legal dispute, if it's, you know, if you're leaving a job in unfriendly terms and you're involved in some kind of process around that, or a divorce or a conflict with a neighbor or some other, or a lawsuit of some kind, whatever that might be, the process can kind of feel heavy handed. Even if it's an out of court process, it can feel really consuming, and and we want to just encourage people to step back and look for ways to find their grounding and stay in touch with who they are and who they want to be, how they want to show up in the conflict process and beyond that and start to look for personally positive outcomes. Maybe they can't control the outcome of the legal dispute, maybe they can't control the legal process, but you still have choices for how you're framing things.
Speaker 2:And one of the things that we were talking about before we hit record that, one of the things that we often see in the context of divorce, both out of court and in court, is that there can be delays, there can be unpredictable delays in the process really fixate on I need this agreement signed or I need this next step of court, or I can't be okay until this next thing is done, until I have the result from this hearing, until I know what the outcome is.
Speaker 2:And every time a person, a human being, is fixating on a particular outcome like that, that person is, from my perspective and it has happened to me too just to be really clear, but losing sight a little bit of having control over your own well-being and thinking about okay, why am I so fixated on having this agreement signed? What do I think that that finality of it is going to bring to my life? There is a delay. There is a delay that I can't have control over. It could be for a million different reasons, but how can I get to the place where I have that same mental mindset that I will, I think I will have when this, when this thing happens, when this agreement is signed, when this judgment is issued like what can I do now to help get myself to that place?
Speaker 1:Right and I think that's something that we hear from people all the time is they feel like their life is on hold while they're waiting for this process to play out no matter what it is, whatever kind of process it is, they feel a lack of power because they feel like they can't move forward. That's what I hear from people.
Speaker 2:And as an attorney.
Speaker 1:I'm not necessarily. I'm going to talk about it here in ways that I can't really talk about it when I'm wearing my attorney hat with a client, because I feel like that's not what I'm hired for, but it's almost like a form of coaching, right, and there are divorce coaches, there are life coaches, there are job coaches, there are all kinds of coaches out there that can help with this. Do now to reclaim a sense of self-empowerment. That might not be in opposition to someone else, but just you know, and it's I'm trying to think of a good example you know ways that you can think about, like, what can I do now to remind myself that I have? You know, I have the power. I have the power to take care of myself.
Speaker 2:Right and to think about what is it that's really bugging you about not having that step happen?
Speaker 2:What do you think, thinking about my own divorce, there was a period of time where we lived together, where we knew we were getting divorced, but our children didn't know yet and we were still living together, and it felt like for that period of time, if I could just be at the place where I'm living on my own, this will be so much easier.
Speaker 2:And there were aspects of it that became easier once we had our own separate living spaces. And there are more challenges because then, all of a sudden, your children have a parenting plan. So there are things like that, that what I tried to do for myself at that time, mostly because of my professional experience, was to really make use of my friends and family and to stay busy on my times when I wasn't with my kids and to remind myself that I am a whole person on my own. So that's probably one of the more personal examples I've ever shared on the podcast, but it fits in. What I think in what we're talking about is that it's reframing for yourself what is your focus and really reframing who am I? What do I need to be okay. How can I make this happen for myself while waiting for these other external things to happen, because I don't have complete control over that external timeline for how this conflict is going to resolve.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, you don't have control necessarily over the timeline or the result, and the result may not be what you want. And in the meantime, you got to live your life. So you've got to look at, like and it may be. You know there are external, like obvious well, maybe not so obvious things that you can do through the process, Like you know. Do you want to work with a coach or a therapist, and there are a lot of, like I said, different kinds of coaches.
Speaker 1:Do you want to hire a financial advisor to get yourself educated about your finances, if you know that's going to be an area of change? And do you want to step into a different role, maybe a role you haven't had in your life before, and explore, like, what are my options? What are my options to be empowered I wish I had a different word for it, but to feel empowered in your life, maybe in a way that you haven't before. And we talked a little bit. So I kind of want to talk about like there are some kind of warning signs I think that you might want to be aware of, that might tell you that you're going down a path that will take you away from feeling empowered, and that's you know if you start identifying yourself, like on a personal level, as a victim of the process or the conflict, if you find that you're really focused on seeking retribution or vindication through the process.
Speaker 1:I'm afraid that the answer is that that's almost never satisfying. I've never seen it really, and I wouldn't have known that if I didn't do this job, Like I wouldn't have necessarily believed that. So I think that there's a value and you and I were talking about this today, Jen I think there's a value in being heard and having an opportunity to be recognized in a conflict and be taken seriously. That's all really important right For your dignity and for your sense of wholeness. Yes, Beyond that, it's like a slippery slope is what I see people deal with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would even caution to say if you find yourself in a place where you are fighting that vindictive anger, where you're fighting that retribution, like you're looking for retribution, just remember your ability to be heard might not be from the person that you feel caused you the harm. So find someone who you can share your story with, who will listen and then, for your own sake and I totally agree with what you just said, patrice is I would not have understood this without doing this work. But watching people go down that path of getting stuck in the wanting to be vindicated, wanting to be right, wanting to have that retribution on certain things, I think causes deep harm to them for many years to come and it's not a mentally healthy place for most people. And so, just for yourself, if you feel like that's starting to happen, seek out someone who will hear you, even if it's not in the process that you're in. So, in other words, your spouse.
Speaker 2:If you are angry at your spouse, your spouse might never hear you, even if it's not in the process that you're in. So, in other words, your spouse. If you are angry at your spouse, your spouse might never hear you. Your spouse might never give you that recognition that you're looking for from them. So that is where you want to find a therapist, you want to find a divorce coach, you want to find even a really good friend who will sit and listen and will hear you. And then our best advice although this is not our area being coaches, but just from years of doing this is to then go back to how can you bring joy into your own life, how can you bring happiness, how can you bring that sense of security, how can you get to as our colleague David Kellum would say, what is your price of peace? How can you get to that peaceful place to move on with your life and really secure that transformation for yourself?
Speaker 1:Right? No, I think you hit them all on the head right. So it is like where is my peace, where is it really, and where's my sense of security, where's my sense of worth and all of those things? And how can I start to build a framework to meet those needs for myself? And then you've got all the power.
Speaker 1:And because when you're doing the other thing, when you're looking for vindication through any legal process, it's almost never satisfying. It's deeply unsatisfying. It's so disappointing and I've seen it happen so many times. And it's hard if people are kind of fixated on it. But what they don't see is that not only have they given up their power, but they're now in a not very strong negotiating position. So it really undermines the outcome for them in ways that they might not see. And it's hard. I'm so glad we're doing this on the podcast, because sometimes it's hard to have these conversations with individuals who are in the moment in pain or confusion, and it's kind of two things right. You have to kind of surrender in a way to the process in order to be transformed by it in a positive way, but also take responsibility for your role in the process.
Speaker 2:That's, I think, the most important part of this message.
Speaker 1:That I think the most important part of this message is that we are suggesting to folks that when you find in a different way of maybe you're not seeking vindication, but you just don't want to deal with it, you just are like I don't want to deal with it, I want my attorney to deal with it, or I want someone you know, just I don't bother me with it, just make it be over and I kind of an unwillingness to engage.
Speaker 2:I was just going to say. You become so apathetic about the outcome that you're no longer thinking through the options anymore and you're no longer showing up for yourself, right, you know you're no longer participating on your own behalf.
Speaker 1:You've sort of abdicated. It's just another way of abdicating your own power, right, agreed. So those are our observations. Do you have anything else to add about what people might, how people might look for ways to flip that script?
Speaker 2:I really think like thinking about all levels of conflict for me, I really think that it comes back to focus on something that you can do every day that brings you a little bit of joy yes, um, so that you don't get completely sucked down into a place of despair. Find like-minded people or people who you can really truly talk to, that you trust, that you feel like they are hearing you, and then figure out what your action steps are from there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I guess I just want to add one little caveat and we didn't talk about this at the time, so I don't know what you'll say to this, jen but if you're going to look for those like-minded people or people that maybe have been through it in a divorce situation, I would kind of not advise talking to people who had really nasty divorces.
Speaker 2:Yes, you want to be careful that you're not creating an echo chamber for yourself, right when people are just going to sort of yes, you to death or I agree, you to death.
Speaker 1:Or second guess, everything Like. You know what you should be doing, you know what you should be.
Speaker 2:Right, you want to find people, when I say you want to find like-minded people. You want to find people who are willing to sit down and engage in a conversation and challenge you a little bit, but also be kind and caring and thoughtful about how they're engaging with you.
Speaker 1:That's, I guess, my definition of like-minded yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, anything else, or is this a good place to stop? I guess you know we had talked about this conversation a little bit in terms more generally of self-care right, and I think everything we just said, as you said at the very outset, like all of this could apply to, you know, situations where there's not necessarily a legal dispute but there's just a sense of you know, there's a sense of being in crisis and it could be a crisis in your life or in your community or in the world that you feel kind of powerless in the face of right.
Speaker 2:Immediately like death of a parent popped into my head, I think probably because we were talking about that a little bit earlier today. But that's another situation where this like thinking about life, this way of thinking about how can you protect your own wellbeing and really find those pieces of joy and happiness even in really, really hard situations, are really critical.
Speaker 1:I love your formula of like making sure that every day, you do something that brings you joy. And it can be something as simple. As you know, jen and I, when we get together, always talk about our dogs and it can be as simple as going outside with the dog and just being in, like taking a moment to appreciate something that's right in front of you, that you don't have to go search for it's already there, and it could be a puppy, or a sunrise, or something in your home that you enjoy, or something so there's just a cup of coffee in the morning or a mug of tea at night or things like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, take the time.
Speaker 2:Something to remind you that you are still a whole person, no matter what's going on, and that you will find ways to restructure whatever needs to be restructured in your life and you will find a path back to being yourself and being happy and again finding that joy.
Speaker 1:More broadly, in life, yeah, and when you're doing this, I mean, okay, so we are no like neuroscientists, but I've heard that like when you make these habits like a daily thing, you are creating neural pathways that reinforce, reinforce, reinforce, reinforce. It gets easier and easier, and so if it's just making a point of looking each day for things to appreciate or be grateful for whatever it is, it's going to start to be self-affirming or self-reinforcing.
Speaker 2:Right Agreed, and I want to make sure our listeners know like we are not saying that this is easy. No not at all In times of conflict and crisis. This is a really hard activity at first, but I do think if you do it day after day, that's how you find your footing again and you find your path forward, and that's hopefully when you start to recognize that transformation within yourself which then shifts to transforming relationships around you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that, Jen, we should create a conflict first aid kit.
Speaker 2:That sounds like such a good idea. Yeah, we should definitely keep talking about that. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1:Well, good advice, we're recording this. It's Thanksgiving week. I don't know when this will be published, but this is all Of 2024. And this is all on my mind. As we go into the holidays and as in the United States, we're going through a transition with administrations and I think a lot of folks are just kind of feeling a little bit up in the air and we don't know exactly what's going to happen next. But these are ways to stay grounded and just be true to yourself.
Speaker 2:Yes, agreed and keep talking. Yes, absolutely, we'll keep talking and everyone should keep talking.