Mending Fences
Mending Fences
The Evolution of a Parenting Plan, Part 1
Divorce transforms relationships, requiring former spouses to reinvent themselves as effective co-parents. In this thoughtful exploration of post-divorce parenting, Patrice Brymner and Jen Hawthorne Kelsey unpack the critical elements of creating sustainable parenting arrangements that truly serve the changing needs of children and parents.
What makes a "good enough" parenting plan? Rather than rigid schedules or perfect-on-paper arrangements, successful co-parenting requires adaptability, patience, and honest communication. Drawing from years of professional experience, Patrice and Jen outline four essential mindsets for navigating this challenging transition: maintaining an open mind to try different approaches, exercising patience throughout the process, avoiding competitive parenting dynamics, and prioritizing quality over quantity in parent-child interactions.
Jen and Patrice share practical advice, like the importance of regular check-ins—both with yourself and your co-parent—to assess what's working and what needs adjustment. They offer concrete strategies for sharing information between households, establishing appropriate boundaries, and creating systems that minimize conflict while keeping both parents informed about their children's lives.
Takeaways: divorce ends marriages, but families continue in new configurations. By approaching co-parenting as an ongoing evolution rather than a fixed arrangement, parents can build foundations for healthy relationships that support their children. Whether you're currently navigating divorce or helping someone who is, these insights provide a roadmap for transforming painful transitions into opportunities for growth and healing.
Welcome to Mending Fences, a podcast about effective ways to communicate and live with differences. I'm Patrice Bremner.
Speaker 2:And I'm Jen Hawthorne. We're both family law mediators and collaborative law attorneys, but our conversations go well beyond family law. We explore the personal, interpersonal, legal and cultural impacts of conflict. We explore the personal, interpersonal, legal and cultural impact of conflict.
Speaker 1:Hi, and welcome back to Mending Fences. This is Patrice Bremner, and I'm here this morning with Jen Hawthorne Kelsey. Hi, jen, hi, patrice, and today we're going to talk about something that's going to sound really specific to divorce and divorce process, parenting, parenting plans, but we really understand that some of the points we're making are going to be valuable for a lot of situations, and particularly, you know, if you're in any kind of relationship a work relationship, a family relationship it doesn't have to be marriage, anything where the form of the relationship has to change, but you still have to deal with each other, right, you still have to deal with each other. There are going to be some tips here that'll be helpful. What do you think, jen?
Speaker 2:I think that's completely accurate, Patrice Excellent.
Speaker 1:So we're going to try to do a good overview, and this is we're calling it evolution of a parenting plan.
Speaker 2:Great, and we're focusing today on the part where you're making the plan. So you're in some sort of process and you're making your parenting plan.
Speaker 1:Right. So you're in some sort of divorce process. It could be mediation, it could be a collaborative divorce, it could be some sort of negotiated, you know, or just a kitchen table divorce where you're working with each other. But you're going through a process and you need to figure out what you want to settle on as your parenting plan moving forward, and so the goal of the process is to come up with a I'm going to call it the good enough parenting plan, yeah, and I would call it the practical and livable parenting plan, yes, which essentially means probably not what either of you actually thought you were going to have, but something that works Right, so something that works for now.
Speaker 2:Right For now, at the stage of life you're at.
Speaker 1:Right. So, and this is based just on, like years of working with people and watching people walk through this and coming up with things that aren't sustainable and then having to modify that, or or watching you know a parenting plan. We've learned from other people's mistakes, we've learned from other people's successes, and so we've come up with a couple of lists that we think are helpful as you, as you begin this process, and I think the the main thing that I want to start with is that it is a process, just like divorce is a process. It's not an event that happens one day. It feels like it with divorce because it's like, well, the hearing is on a certain day, but really it's a process of morphing relationships into something else and changing the configuration of your family.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, and so step one in any process is definitely like think about your goals and, ideally, talk about goals around parenting in a meeting with whoever you're working with, for professionals, or with each other, and we don't mean when we use the word goals. We don't mean, you know, I want parenting time on X day, or I want X number of overnights, or I want but rather like much more overarching goals, things like I want to maintain a healthy relationship with my co-parents so that our communication works. I want to have meaningful time with my children. I want to continue to have my children know that they are the most important people in my life. Those sort of goals.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a really good place for people to start and to even for themselves as individuals. Maybe write some of those things down so that you can come back. We're going to make a suggestion a little later on about how to check in to see if what you're doing is serving your goals. So be aware of what those goals are, and your goals may change over time. But I think Jet's absolutely right you don't want to get stuck in specific goals that are related to time or specific details at that level. But it is like how do you want the parent, how do you want parenting to feel and how do you want your relationships to grow?
Speaker 2:Right, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1:Including right and then including like. This entire exercise is going to be an opportunity for co-parents to shift from being spouses to being co-parents and to start to lay the foundation for and build that relationship and figure out where do our boundaries need to be, what works and what doesn't right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, marriages end families. Don't end your relationship as co-parents never ends, right, it's just reality. And so thinking about how do you make that transition from folks who are living together and partners in all of life to partners in co-parenting is exactly why it's a process. That's not an easy transition and we hope that, as you listen to us during this conversation, you don't you don't hear us minimizing any of the decisions that have to be made. They're important and it's a process and that's why it's an evolution. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would say, like you know, we use the word partner or co-parent and it is, it is, it is that. But it doesn't mean like, we're not saying you have to be friends, we're not saying you have to. You know your marriage is ending, so it's going to change, but there's a way from there to successful co-parenting that supports your relationship with your kids. Right, really, that's the goal, right?
Speaker 2:And supports your children as they grow up and launch into adulthood.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're going to do kind of four and I might I'm not sure what order these go in, jen, so help me out, but we talked about sort of four things to keep in mind as you start talking about.
Speaker 1:What should our parenting plan look like? Like, if we're going to put something together, what is it going to look like? And the first one I think we both had as number one is to be open to options and to keep an open mind. You're going to have to try some things on You're not going to have in your first conversation. You're not going to come up with a schedule, probably, that never needs to be tweaked and that you're both in complete agreement on.
Speaker 2:And even if you think you did and you think you are in complete agreement, this is what we're really asking you to do is consider the fact that maybe you haven't tried it, you haven't lived it yet and things need to evolve. And things need to evolve so that, like, even if you think you have a perfect on paper plan that you both agree to be open to the fact that it might need to change.
Speaker 1:Exactly Right, and I think you hit it like it might look good on paper, but until you're living it day and night in the 3D world with everything that comes with it, you won't know what about it works for you and what doesn't, and you might be surprised. So we'll come back to that. You might be surprised by the things that work and don't work. So that's number one is be open minded, open to options, and my number two strongly I think is to be patient.
Speaker 2:That's what I have as number two as well, and really what we mean when we say that is I think Patrice already mentioned this once is don't rush. It is uncomfortable, and sometimes more than uncomfortable painful, going through the divorce process, and I've definitely had folks in the past that think that rushing to a parenting plan and starting it and having a full separation agreement that can be signed and submitted to the court means that that discomfort and that pain ends. I want to encourage you to think about the fact that if you take it slow, try on different things and find the right fit, long term things might be much less uncomfortable and you might have a chance to start to heal and build that new co-parenting relationship during the process rather than just after rather than just after.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it can be. I know that people get frustrated because it feels sort of tedious and it, and I think that for some people like that, that discomfort creates a sense of urgency. Yes, and, and I I totally understand that, but at each step you'll, you'll reach a little resting point at each step, right, and then you take another step, and then you take another step and it's all instructive and it's all helpful. So you know, if you put something together and you've got an open mind, trust this process and be patient. You're gathering information by trying out different plans. Yes, and I think our number three is, is, and I'm not quite sure how to say this one, but it's. You know, parenting is hard and co-parenting is different. It's a different kind of hard and it's going to be a big change because you're not going to have your kids in your house with you all the time.
Speaker 2:Right, right and I I wrote it down in my notes a little bit differently, like the the main message that I think and this is definitely hard to do, so it's tied, but you're not trying to out-parent each other, you're learning how to co-parent. Co-parenting is competitive. You're not competing for your children's affection, like if you trust the process you work through and find something that actually works for everyone your co-parent and your children. Everyone has a place in your children's lives moving forward and you shouldn't be trying to outshine each other in any way or using the parenting plan as a way to sort of twist a knife Right Once back, because then you're not setting the right foundation, right and I think it's something people do unintentionally.
Speaker 1:I don't think people are always so. We're highlighting it as something to be aware of, like you don't have to compete. It's not a contest, right? You don't win if you have more time or you do more stuff with the kids, which leads right into the next one well, just for a pause, and then we'll get to the next one.
Speaker 2:I think that when people hear that a lot of times they hear but my, or they respond with internally but my co-parent is doing X, y and Z. And so remember, just like any other conflict, you can only control your own behavior and your own reactions to the other person's behavior. And every single interaction is an opportunity to demonstrate to the other person, to your co-parent, in this conversation, your intentions around not being competitive, not twisting that knife, not doing those things. And sometimes it is true that one parent needs to take the lead to build that relationship. So just don't discount it, even if you're not feeling amicable.
Speaker 1:Right, and it may shift over time, like it might be one person taking the lead at one point and somebody else another time. So, and it goes back to the be patient, these all interrelate, right, right?
Speaker 2:Right, when you were introducing it I was thinking they were all circular, like they all feedback each other.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And the fourth one in this circle is the. You know, when you're thinking about time with your kids, think in terms of quality over quantity and I know that sounds kind of cliche, but it's really true. It's really really helpful to think about the type of time you want to spend with your kids and not count the days or the minutes, but to think about, like you know, what is that going to feel like and look like Right?
Speaker 2:Right. I think sometimes people can get really focused on. It has to be 50-50, or I have to have the children during the school week so that they have routine, and what can be missed there from a parenting perspective is that, depending on what you're picking and what your schedule looks like, you might be creating a plan where your entire role in their lives is getting them to and from places, making sure their homework is done, getting them to bed on time because it's a school day, and you're missing those opportunities for that more, what I would term in my own life as like relaxed parenting, where you're, you know, hanging out with them, watching a movie, playing a game, talking. So just remember, you want to. You want to think about what the quality of your time with your kids is, more than the quantity.
Speaker 1:Exactly so. Those are our four tips on what to take into consideration or the mindset, I guess, as you're starting to put something to paper and you're going to try it out. There are a lot of different standard parenting plans. We're not going to get into all of them. You can find them on the Internet. There are schedules that are quote unquote, typical, and the most the parents, the parents, live separately and the kids go back and forth. There's also something called nesting. We're not going to get into a lot about that today, but that's where the kids live in one house and the parents come and go from their own houses. So different ways to do this, and I think that no matter which thing you pick, no matter what schedule it is, no matter the living arrangement, these four tips are going to be guides to what you're trying. It's the keep an open mind, be patient, don't be competitive and look for quality over quantity in terms of the actual time right.
Speaker 2:Right, and as you're doing that and you're thinking of it as a process, one of the really important things to think about, I think, is make sure you're having regular check-ins, whether it's with a mediator, your professionals or just each other. Try something for a few weeks and then check in and during those check-ins, be really, really honest. What's working for you? What's working for your children? What do you think is's working for your children? What do you think is not working for you? What do you not like? What's making you feel uncomfortable?
Speaker 1:because and I'm going to say, jen, that the most important check-in and then let's get into what the specifics are to look at but the most important check-in might be with yourself. Yeah, right, like maybe you are checking in with each other in a mediation session or by email or something, I don't know. You can set that up in a formal way, but first, before you communicate to the other parent, my suggestion is to check in with yourself and and be open minded and be willing to recognize like wow, I didn't think this was going to work, but it is.
Speaker 2:Or I thought this was going to work and here is. Or I thought this was going to work and here's the issues I'm having with it. Like this might've been my idea, but here's what I'm struggling with, because the more honest you can be with each other, the more likely you are going to end up with that good enough or practical, livable plan.
Speaker 1:I think it's key, it's absolutely key, right? So if you can be willing to say, you know, I thought this was going to work, I was sure that this was the only schedule that was going to work and here's what's not working. But when you're looking at you know the experience over the previous couple of weeks whatever it is, look at what's working right, be aware of the things that are working and why it works, and look at the stuff that, the things that aren't working and it might be things like you know the transfers aren't going well for some reason. The transitions, the exchanges, like what's Right.
Speaker 2:Is there too much stuff going back and forth? Is there not enough stuff going back and forth? Do you need to duplicate things to make that easier, so that the children have access to things in both houses?
Speaker 1:Right, or are you finding out that you want a different kind of boundary around showing up at each other's houses? Do you need to do that Going into each other's houses, right, yeah, or is the timing not working? Do you have kids on different schedules going to different schools? Should your kids be on different parenting schedules?
Speaker 2:Right, or do you both need to pitch in on certain days because you're? It's impossible for one person to get multiple children where they need to be on time. Just the going from a two-parent household to even a two-parent household that wasn't working well because your marriage wasn't working well to a one person, how a one adult household is, it's a huge change and, depending on how old your kids are and you know the level of busyness in their lives, just working out that schedule can be super challenging. So if you're honest with each other, that schedule can be super challenging. So, if you're honest with each other about how you know, does your kid's schedule need to change? Is that possible? Do you need to both pitch in on a certain day? What's like really what's working and what's not, from a super practical, logistical stage?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when you're doing the check-in and you know especially, I'll always be the advocate for the self-check, check-in is the primary one and as you're doing that, look back at those goals and see, like, am I, is this arrangement serving the goals of whatever it is, the goals of making sure my kids know that they've got two parents who are there for them and involved and engaged if that's a goal, or if one of the goals is, you know, starting to foster a new kind of communication style with your co-parent.
Speaker 1:So some folks in that regard, I'll jump in a little bit on that. But I really want to hear your tips on this one, jen, of like how to, how to share information between the two households, right, so a lot of people might do email, some people might do text, but become aware of and it's okay to be this granular, right, it's okay to say like, hey, I appreciate the texts when the kids are with you and everything, but I don't really want to get text after 10 o'clock at night or whatever that might be. But try to be kind about the way you're providing the feedback.
Speaker 2:Yes, the more you can build a sense of cooperation, a sense of respect and a sense of understanding, which can be very, very challenging Again, I'm not trying to minimize that when you're angry at each other and your marriage is ending, but the more you can do that, the more likely you are to. I'm going to use this analogy again, like build that strong foundation for co-parenting, because if you're sending, if you're the one, let's put you in the place of being the one sending the text. You're sending texts to your co-parent at 10, 11 o'clock at night and they're getting them right as they're about to go to sleep and then they can't sleep and it's in their mind all night and they're worried, they're bothered, they're upset, they're angry. Whatever the emotions that they might be feeling are, that's going to translate into increased hostility and tension, which makes parenting that much more difficult. So, to the best possible, if you can talk about what each of your boundaries are, what's working, what's not working, around communication, around sharing of information, around the children. You know, maybe at first you need minimal contact with each other when it's not your parenting time, but you still need to know what's going on with your children. You know, make sure you're both on all the lists so that you're getting all the communications.
Speaker 2:That is not as easy as it sounds. You mean from school, and from I mean from schools, extracurriculars, everything Like. So many of these different systems are set up to only contact one parent, so really pushing back on whatever system that is like again, whether it's an extracurricular or a doctor's office or a school to say, okay, no, we need this communication to go to both parents. I don't care what workaround you need to do, it needs to go to both parents. And getting to a place where you check in, like if your kid starts something new, did you get this email from this person? Let's mutually reach out to this person and make sure that they know. Like because I'll speak for myself, like each time my kid has started a new team for baseball, we have to reach out to the coach and say, hey, we both really need to be on this email. Our child has two households.
Speaker 1:yeah, it's so important because without that, I mean I don't want to drill down on this too much, but it's like that's such a good example, because without that, I mean I don't want to drill down on this too much, but it's like that's such a good example because without that, you know, then the burden comes to the parent who's receiving the information, to make sure that they're forwarding that or remembering that, and it's just as a it's so easily avoided.
Speaker 2:Right, and another easy way to do this, I think and this is my easy, so it might not be yours.
Speaker 2:Easy way to do this, I think, and this is my easy, so it might not be yours but my co-parent and I have had, since we first got divorced, a calendar on Google Calendar that has none of either of our personal information on it. It only has it's the family calendar. It has stuff that is for the kids. So if I get an email that has, like, my child's rehearsal schedule or something I input all the times, I'm not sending an email to my co-parent, but he is getting an email from Google Calendar that tells him that I added an event and vice versa. So we don't even have to talk to each other, but we both see what's going on this child related calendar on this child-related calendar. So there are ways to do it that can minimize your contact and try to tamp down that hostility and the painful feelings, the uncomfortable feelings you're having when you interact with each other, but still keep you on the same page around your children.
Speaker 1:And it all comes back to you know what's the goal. Where do you want to be as co-parents five years from now, 10 years from now? What do you want your children to have, as you know what's their, what do you want them to have as parents? You know how. What should that look like? And there'll be. You know, the answer is going to be different for every two set of people, every set of people, right? So what your kids needs are what your needs are. It's all going to be different. So it's experimentation, meaningful, helpful feedback, either to yourself or to the other person, tweaking as you go and hopefully, in the end, you'll be able to say, okay, we've landed on something that seems like it's going to be sustainable, let's do this, and that may be the thing that is finally written up and and presented to the court as your parenting plan. It doesn't mean it can't be changed in the future. It can. Also really important to remember, you're this this can be modified, so that's going to be the topic. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly that's what I was exactly going to say, patrice, is that evolution doesn't stop because you wrote something down once. Both your relationship as co-parents and the actual parenting plan will very likely evolve over your children's childhood and especially, you know, the younger your children are when this is happening, the more true that is. If you're listening to us and you have high school or college-age kids, your evolution of at least the parenting plan part might be very small, but if you have elementary-age kids, it's going to change a lot probably.
Speaker 1:That's right, and so that evolution, the post-divorce evolution of the parenting plan, will be in part two of this conversation. But these tips are going to serve you well, getting through the process of developing a parenting plan and learning how to be parents in a new way.
Speaker 2:Exactly, that's exactly right. So we're going to keep talking. Watch out for part two. Thanks Jen, Thanks Patrice.